Thanks everyone for your comments on how long newbies should delay wearing bogu. The consensus seems to be “the longer the better”, with 6 months to a year as the ideal range. Everyone put some real thought into the subject and you have given me some food for thought on how we should manage the transition to bogu. Whilst the comments on this blog were immensely constructive, I noticed one or two surrounding discussions on Facebook that mentioned the money motive as a reason for delaying or speeding up the period spent before using armour.
This piqued my interest, as to the best of my knowledge no-one in my extensive kendo network makes a profit from kendo.
Obviously Japanese police and university professionals receive a salary for doing their job, as do the few official Shihan of big public dojos, but in most cases, kendo teaching is a labour of love. Even those who sit on grading panels or who run international seminars can expect no more than their travel expenses and give their time for free. Many kendo teachers even subsidise events by contributing to the cost of travel or by refusing expenses.
In both the clubs where I practice and teach, the membership fees are calculated to cover the cost of hall rental and nothing more. Even the kyu grading exam which I started last week’s post by describing, was free, even though a number of people had contributed time in organising the event and designing and producing menjo.
I am curious to know if there are any dojo which are run on a truly commercial basis. Although I see crowds of parents delivering their children to judo and karate classes, in the west, kendo tends to be more specialist in its appeal. I believe that for most of us the motive for teaching kendo is to encourage others to join us and to keep the population of colleagues and opponents at a healthy level. There is also the imperative that having benefited from the time and attention of some very kind and patient senior teachers, the least we can do is pass on what little knowledge has rubbed off on us.
I am writing this post in preparation for Monday as I am about to take another unpaid day’s leave to travel to the Sugo Cup in Sweden. My wife has resigned herself to the fact that while my frequent kendo trips do not help the family budget they keep me motivated for what the rest of my life has to offer, including work.
If you know of anyone who is rolling in money as a product of their kendo activities, I would be keen to know, although obviously I won’t tell the Mrs.
A lot of dojos in China, specially in 2nd or 3rd tier cities, are run for profit.
Northumbria Dojo, runs twice a week and money collected is to purely cover the annual charge of rent or centre membership
I do not, although one always suspects that our American colleagues would have an eye for the $ if anyone does.
But given the high cost of equipment and the often older status of players, perhaps as good a question is what difference would a commercial approach make to kendo? If there was more money in the system, would this make our art better supported and thus perhaps attended by more?
At least in California (Northern California to be more exact), it seems that from my small sample size of dojos visited–the vast majority are there to teach, as opposed to sell, Kendo. This is in stark contrast to other martial arts out there practiced in the US (there are outliers of course), which makes Kendo training all the more attractive. Interestingly, the only for-profit Kendo dojo (or is it Kendojo?) I’ve seen is here in Tokyo where I now reside–of which the target students are foreigners.
As a long time practitioner in a different art (or ‘sport’) I can understand the need for profit–the instructors need to eat, send their kids to school, keep their spouses happy, be financially secure, etc. etc., but there’s always the risk of diluting the purity of the pursuit.
This is not an American, versus Korean, versus Japanese issue at all though–simply chalking something up to ‘culture’ is of course the least intellectually challenging thing to do. There are ‘cultural’ differences to be sure, but those differences can usually be explained by the environment and historical legacies which shape the incentives of those involved. Who in Japan (other than say, foreigners with limited Japanese skills), would go to a for-profit dojo when he or she could probably find a local school gym stacked with multiple high level dan graded kendoka practicing right around the corner? The incentives (and thus the ‘preferences’ of both teachers and students) just aren’t there.
Perhaps the reason why there aren’t more for-profit Kendo dojos out there, is simply because there’s no market for it. I say ‘perhaps’ because I’m simply guessing–I really don’t know, but at this point it makes the most intuitive sense. If the system did have more money in it–I’m not exactly sure how it would (or could?) make it ‘better’–I assume it really is a function of what your definition of ‘better’ is. I will defer to the experts such as Salmon Sensei, et al to determine the answer to that. I do know however, that when ever I see Karate or TaeKwonDo practitioners suiting up in uniforms covered in their respective country’s colors (see for example: http://ninjaninja.com/index.php/usa-hakama.html), I’m quite thankful for the current state of Kendo.
Money in the system only twist it and make it go sour. Not really keen on making experiments and seeing if the “Kendo system” would behave differently. Being attended by more, including those who would be attracted by money itself? well, frankly, better not.
In Asia, in China and Korea, namely, there seem to be several “commercial” dojo, but I never had a price list in my hands, so I would not be able to give evidence. Would someone else? I am curious.
In Russia there are several people (at least kendo and iaido) who does private lessons and even seminars for money.
I wrote a long reply to this post including my knowledge of a 7th Dan Sensei who charges 150€ for a seminar and other aspects, but I deleted all of that and sum it up in by saying:
The teachings should be free, from heart to heart, from mind to mind.
(and thankful students thank the teacher by taking care of some costs, like tickets, food, shelter, etc.)
well, in Brazil we have a successful of Commercial Kendo, or McDojo as we are used to call here. The so called institute is in fact bigger than the Brazilian kendo confederation and the fees goes around 100U$, while my dojo is about 10U$.
Here is the link for the homepage, you can use google translator to read something:
http://www.niten.org.br/
Yep Guilherme!
My post is similar to yours. I lived in Spain for 5 years and we paid 40€ to cover expenses. It was really cheap for europe.
Here in Brazil we have this institute charging more than 100U$ monthly.
Here in Spain kendo is not, in any way, a profitable business.
However, one could say that the Federation of Judo and Sports Associates, both national and local in each province have quite lucrative purpose.
Any process related to them, grade exams, qualifications, etc … usually cost an absurd amount of money especially considering the current crisis.
€ 180 costs a “possibility” for an examination of third dan in Madrid.
It is not easy to practice kendo if you are young with a national youth unemployment rate of 50% and an increasingly high university tuition fees.
I am an unranked kenshi in the US. I live and practice in a small city, but we are honored to have a 7Dan sensei (Robert Stroud Sensei) teaching our club. Sensei has a “real” job to pay his bills and feed his family, and gives generously of his time both to our club as well as many seminars/taikais/workshops around the country.
If there’s any pressure to get into bogu (I push a lot more than he does…) it’s because we’re a small club, and every kenshi in bogu helps.
I don’t have a large kendo network, but I’m not aware of any dojo or Sensei who are in this for the money.
I have never heard of a US Kendo dojo (Federation) that makes a profit. It is generally inexpensive to be a member of a dojo here (not including bogu/shinai), but that may depend on the city. I know NYC is more expensive. Our dojo charges $30 per month for as many practices as you want to attend. If we ever have money left over, we use it to buy practice shinai in bulk and resell them to the members at cost. In the summer, we throw a BBQ for our members and their families (which we always come up short), and we invest in “stuff” when needed to keep our annual tournament looking somewhat professional (flags, stopwatches, whistles, tape, etc.). But nothing that anyone can make a living on!
The only people i know who makes a profit with kendo (besides japanese police officers) are couches who are hired to train most of times national teams for WKC. They usually are former members of national teams in their own countries or senseis with high grades. Here in Brazil i’ve knownd 3 people who served as couches and they make some good and worthy money on it. In my personal opinion i don’t think is a bad or unethical think at all this people usually have to travel and live abroad for some time and generally quit their jobs in their own countries for that, they work hard to help those teams achieve good results and beautiful kendo, in other words, they help kendo =D
In Santa Barbara our monthly fees are $50 and 90% of that goes for facility use fees. The other 10% covers occasional expenses such as donations at regional shiai. When we had a few more members the head instructor had his regional and national federation dues paid by the monthly fees and all sensei did not have to pay monthly dues. At our current number of members we sensei pay those fees ourselves and also pay monthly dues. Examination fees by the regional federation are on a sliding scale from $20 any kyu up to $50 to test for 4 Dan. I remember remarking, when I failed the 4 Dan exam a few years ago right after the higher fees went into place , “I guess I don’t have $50 kendo, yet”.
I’m hearing two words: commercial and profit. First I will say this issue is probably more specific to the U.S. Many dojos when they grow bigger often have to look at potentially becoming organizations. Profit vs Nonprofit not going into detail but different statuses afford that group different legal protections/benefits. Because unfortunately people can get sued and even little league sports have similar organizations. As people mentioned there is rarely any substantial profit if any.
Now to briefly address the word commercial. Ariga-sensei from E-bogu owns his own dojo and has the means. The dojo is specifically for martial arts and he is a kendo teacher. Not breaking down dues/fees/etc but one could call that commercial kendo. Although I’m sure for the most part there is little difference from any other dojo in CA. There are also many Korean dojos (Kumdo dojang) that own their own facilities. Yes there are also the many McDojos out there as people mentioned.
For the most part my concerns with money and “commercial kendo” is if someone’s ultimate goal is to make money and not practice kendo. Where they don’t care about the quality of instruction, their student’s welfare and/or mislead their students. I’ve heard of a couple rare cases in “commercial dojos”/mostly dojang where the instructor “retired” taking the money and leaving the students with nothing.
My kumdo dojang here in Korea is what I would call “commercial,” as are most that are not clubs or affiliated with a school/university or run by the police. My kwanjangnim has a full-time day job, but he employs 2 professional sabumnim that run the classes when he’s not there, who are essentially responsible for the daily operation of the dojang. It’s their full-time job, and their lifelong passion. They certainly aren’t getting rich. I know how much the rent is, how many students there are, and what we all pay. All I can say is, you better really love kumdo if you plan on becoming a professional teacher, because there are certainly easier and more lucrative careers (and if my kwanjangnim is a good example, you need another job anyway).
There is a benefit to this, our space is tailor made for kumdo, with a proper sprung floor, storage for all the member’s hogu/jukdo, etc… Having a dedicated facility is a nice thing, and I’m sure my aging joints appreciate the upgrade from gymnasiums floors meant for use with shoes.
The KKA also strictly regulates where a new dojang can open (and by whom). You can’t have two in close proximity to one another. I have to assume this is in part because of the economics of it. This is unlike taekwondo dojangs, of which there are at least 5 within walking distance of where I live. The next nearest kumdo dojang I’d have to drive to get to. Granted, taekwondo is much more popular, so that may be a factor too.
I have as of yet to see any kumdo dojangs here where it wasn’t about anything but the kumdo being practiced, but my experience is limited. I’m not sure if that’s because of the KKA’s involvement, or because of the kind people who pursue kumdo. I suspect it might be a little of both, as well as other factors of which I’m naive.
I wish the fee I charge our guys actually covered the costs of running the dojo. 😦
As a US kendoka, in my experience I have never known or heard of anyone who profits from kendo. I myself have never paid more than $35/month for dojo fees, and that goes mostly to rent and a small club emergency fund. Us Americans usually do have a reputation of chasing the $, but for kendo it really is a labor of love. If one is to assume Americans tend to chase the $, it’s also safe to assume that we spend long hours at our jobs and careers that make it difficult to regularly attend kendo practice. I know a couple of colleagues who were thrust into leadership positions when the instructors of their dojos became inundated with work and business and could no regularly lead practices.
There exist various budo and kenjutsu schools that incorporate kendo elements, but these types of institutions are private and run more along the lines of the mcdojos that have “grandmasters” of a specific “style.” They rarely have affiliation with the US kendo federation, and usually do no affiliate with FIK regulated kendo events and members.
I think the broad appeal and growing popularity of kendo, in countries outside of Japan and Korea, is due to the generally modest approach to organization and leadership that engenders a strong sense of community since it is a labor of love rather than being a single person’s commercial venture.
More than commercial dojo, I personally can’t stand people selling teach-yourself-kendo video and downloadable bundles online for hundreds of pounds a go. Most people can realise a fraud pretty quickly when they meet face to face, but those who buy anonymously online are simply being defrauded …
I’ve seen a couple dojos in the Chicago area that are for profit dojos that offer kendo. That is they are primarily karate or other martial art dojos, but offer kendo on the side. They are not affiliated dojos however.
I think you always go to find McDojos… when you find it…. RUN!
There were/are two commercial dojo on the east coast I’m aware of.